SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I just read through this post with great interest as it is one of the mysteries Ive tried to wrap my head around in the post mortem of my first wifes betrayal. I heard a version of "it wasnt real/it was just xyz" and I must admit that when I read the title of this thread, I winced...after all these years....I still winced. I have taken a stab at similar topics in "the lies we tell ourselves" and "duplicity vs cognitive dissonance" and got some great input there as well. This thread is no different.

As an aside, all of the offshoot issues of betrayal and their deleterious effects on the betrayed remind me of the scene in Dune (for all of you Frank Herbert fans) where Paul Atreides is forced by the reverend mother to put his hand in the box with the poisoned needle-Gom Jabbar, at his neck. He asks what is in the box and the reverend mother responds with one word "pain". Its like that for me. I dont want to stick my hand in the box of trying to understand the betrayal, but I really have to in order to move forward and not let the poison if it all kill me inside. This was the position my first wife's betrayal left me in.

Anyway, I digress.

I now consider that there are different motives for different WSs that pop a version of "it wasnt real" out of their mouths.

For some, their betrayal of their spouse/SO is just too painful to face, so it mustve been an alternate frame of mind/fantasy. A way to assuage their own pain and guilt.

For others, its just another form of duplicity. A lie that is just another lie. Its their "winning formula"....to lie.

For others, it truly was a form of cognitive dissonance. A detaching from their normal modus operandi. Many times there are extraneous circumstances that bring what I call a "pressure cooker" effect that, when combined with foo issues, make them vulnerable. Its no excuse, but it is a posible reason (I have come far in my acceptance of this thanks, in part, to many posters here).

On its face, regardless of the backdrop, it always sounds "infuriating and nonsensical". What is more infuriating is to try and ferret out true motive and that is a virtual impossibility. Any claim to have discerned motive is a pyrrh8c at best as the "horses have left the barn" so to speak, and the barn is now on fire.

I was also reminded of another quote from Clavell's Shogun (eagerly awaiting of the series remake):

"It's a saying they have, that a man has a false heart in his mouth for the world to see, another in his breast to show to his special friends and his family, and the real one, the true one, the secret one, which is never known to anyone except to himself alone, hidden only God knows where."

So, there you have it. My take on the gordian knot of my first wife's thoughts and motives for her betrayal. For what its worth, I do believe that what popped the version of "it wasnt real" out of my first wife's mouth was that it was just too painful to face. She was ill equipped to face it. I was ill equipped to deal with it and respond in a healthy manner.

What a mess.

[This message edited by DobleTraicion at 1:42 AM, Thursday, January 4th]

sisoon:

Per WebMD, about 5%-7% of affairs are followed by the aps marrying each other, and 75% of those Ms end in D. I think it's fair to conclude that your example demonstrates that the reality of M is much different from the fantasy of the A.

That's not the only conclusion that can be drawn, but it looks like the most obvious one, IMO.

You've said that your XWSo quickly left you for her ap. I take it that you have little to no insight into her frame of mind. With that experience you have judged the WSes who have commented on your posts to be less than honest with themselves or us. Frankly, I think you see dishonesty based on pain, given that the WSes you mistrust have long histories of posts that indicate honesty.

I don't think anyone is LYING per se. I do believe people on here are answering to the best of their knowledge in good faith--although truth be told I don't think about that so much. As far as the "happy" R stories I just cannot see myself in (almost) any of these stories and being all that happy.

But with that said, you can still be both HONEST (saying the truth as you really believe it) and at the same time, WRONG.

The narrative that seems to be expressed on SI is that infidelity is caused by poor coping mechanisms and conflict resolution skills that manifest after a build-up of resentments. I think in a way that is just...singing a happy tune. I choose not to hum along. My views are shaped instead by evolutionary psychology, that we don't talk enough about on here, IMO, and that paints a darker picture of why people cheat. Basically people cheat because on the primal level, they are looking for the most efficient ways of passing their genes along. Does that mean that a woman cheating on her H is really looking to replace him, as I claimed? No, and the stats you pointed out probably support this. If anything it is even worse than that though. That makes R very difficult for me to imagine.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 9:36 PM, Thursday, January 25th]

You are right though, sisoon, in that the pain of being cheated on hurts no matter what...

I can honestly say I didn’t trust the AP for the things mentioned. I wouldn’t use trust at all in the equation.

I think one of the reasons fantasy gets used to the affair is often the whole thing is a way for the ws to convince themselves they are more desirable or interesting than they are.

The AP is the audience to that. If they play their role well it will fool you into believing you are the one with the upper hand in the situation.

I was the one too clever for everyone. I didn’t need to trust him, I went into the situation kind of cocky. He was willing to let me think whatever I wanted.

I also think calling an affair "love" a bastardization of the word. Love is wanting the best for the other person, wanting them to be happy. You can’t do that while helping someone destroy thier lives and loved ones.

Affairs are attachments, toxic attachments. The feelings one has in them is usually based on avoidant and delusional thinking.

I had the affair, it was real. So I would never sit and argue that I had temporary insanity or didn’t make outright decisions. What I will say those decisions and thoughts were based on was projections, and escapism, this the shorthand of fantasy. Delusional thinking.

A) I was never going to get caught.

B) I deserved something to make me happy.

C) My marriage is over because my husband has never loved me.

Reality is

A) You can’t bury an affair and live a life that feels good.

B) The affair didn’t make me happy, in fact it brought misery for years in its wake. And for what? Nothing. The farce of it all is almost the hardest to swallow - only trumped by the devastation I watched my husband battle.

C. My marriage was fine and fixable until I chose to have an affair. And it was me not able to receive love or believe someone loved me for me.

I would say that for a ws, they don’t really love anyone at the time of their affair. And I don’t think it’s trust in the AP, I think it’s more desperation to believe something in order to escape reality.

That all being said, I don’t discount that none of that really helps or means anything in the end to a BS.

What means something in the end would have been not doing it. The only thing left is to try and make amends, and ensure the person you become will not repeat this in the future. I think the often fought about point of contention is how long it should take for someone to be completely unreliable to becoming reliable. This is not something that happens overnight. You don’t become a cheater and snap out of it. Cheating is often the symptom of complex interpersonal issues that takes a great deal of time to resolve.

That’s why you see these requirements being passed around - they are bare minimum stuff. Like NC, and transparency, timelines, etc. I think those things are so bare minimum that compliance is a reasonable ask for the shorter term of recovery.

The deeper stuff, changing core things about who you are, that does take longer and is much harder to define progress because that is so individually mapped. But that is part of reconciliation, which we often say is 2-5 years. And that’s partially because the healing both people have to do takes that long.

[This message edited by hikingout at 6:26 AM, Friday, January 26th]

As far as the "happy" R stories I just cannot see myself in (almost) any of these stories and being all that happy.

I can believe and understand that. What I don't understand is going from that to casting doubt on what other people say about their own R experience, which you do, IMO.

The narrative that seems to be expressed on SI is that infidelity is caused by poor coping mechanisms and conflict resolution skills that manifest after a build-up of resentments.

That looks like a straw man to me.

If there's any consensus on SI, I think 2 causes come up most frequently: 1) the WS cheated out of narcissism, and 2) the WS cheated to get external validation. I'm not sure of that, though, because I haven't even attempted to do an objective content analysis of threads/posts/people.

*****

I'll give more credence to evolutionary psychology when its propositions get tested; however, I'm not sure if its propositions can ever be tested ethically. Now that I think of it, even if consent is required, I don't know how the people who give consent would constitute a random sample. Personally, I would consent to a drug trial or something like that. A psych experiment? Probably never.

As for cheating to propagate genes, tell that to the men whose post-menopausal Ws have cheated or to Ws of men who cheat with men or to the Ws of men who cheat with women and expect the woman to use birth control or who pay for abortions for their aps. Tell it to the men with high sexual wants who don't cheat. Tell that to the boys and young men who don't commit rape.

I have no doubt that biology is destiny, but it's obvious to me that biology is pretty varied.

*****

I can see a person with no R experience asking questions about R. I can see pointing out conflicts between statements that a person in R posts about themself. I can see confronting causal statements when you think a person is pointing themself to the wrong cause. I can see suggesting to a person that they look at themselves and figure out their motives for choosing to R. I might even be able to see saying something like, 'I read your words, but they don't ring true for me because _____.'

Making assertions about R that are supportable only by ignoring some pretty convincing testimony that R succeeds in some - many - cases ... that seems to come from something like a trigger.

Triggers are feelings - deal with the feelings, and the trigger loses its power.

But with that said, you can still be both HONEST (saying the truth as you really believe it) and at the same time, WRONG.

Which part exactly are you referring to as wrong? The fact that happy R’s exist? What led to the affair? The work that waywards do? The work that BS’s do?

What license do you hold to tell people with experience they are wrong while not sharing that experience yourself?

Is it possible that you might the one that is wrong?

Is the only answer to infidelity divorce?

The statement that WS do not trust their APs, is WRONG. Actions say something completely different. I've already said my piece on this.

Here's a good quote that's in the SI Quote thread in F&G:

From RealityBlows in General, under Compartmentalize the A. Great description of Unicorn Fart Land vs. Reality:

That alternate reality they create (The Affair Bubble) conveniently shields them from their conscience and creates a wonderfully romantic, although morally ambiguous, environment complete with soft focus, glamour glow, cinematic slow motion, key lighting, and background music from Des'ree or Pink Mountain Tops set in an illicit, dark, fatalistic, forbidden fruit noir and where your AP looks like Kevin Costner or Diane Lane.

And then they come home to us, Le chateau of deferred maintenance, screaming kids, bills on the counter, and meatloaf-again.

For me, this helps to understand how the A could be considered unreal. There's a protective bubble that the WS and AP can create as their Unicorn Fart Land, while we are living in Le Chateau. Which reality is correct? I would say Le Chateau of deferred maintenance, but that's my perception.

The statement that WS do not trust their APs, is WRONG

.

Okay, because you have had an AP?

Let me put it to you this way-

The thing I trusted in the affair is the ap would get in as much or more trouble than me if the secret came out.

Beyond that, drunk on my own kool aid I believed I was more clever than him. More clever than my husband. The trust you see from an external perspective really boiled down to the fantasy I was living out: aka I was the shit. In my quest to feel younger, sexier, more interesting I needed to believe everyone else believed what was happening in my head.

Trust him? I barely knew him.

Sexual activity is not a litmus test for trust. Men and women have had one night stands or short term flings throughout the spans of time. The person they are trusting in the situation is themselves.

Trust a married man who is pursuing a married woman? Don’t you think that would take a suspension of reality? Isn’t THAT a fantasy???

Here is what I think: you are steadfast to a narrative you can live with. It’s based on your own assumptions and perceptions. But you have not had an affair, you can only have the depth to see it as face value.

However, I will concede that face value is all that matters.

People should not go out and have an affair to begin with. And as a divorced man, you had the right for things to end right there. But when we talk about mindset, it’s to figure out how it was ever a mind set, not to say it was ever okay.

[This message edited by hikingout at 4:42 AM, Saturday, January 27th]

Ws who claim they never wanted to divorce, and loved their spouse during their affair knew if their bs found out, they might lose them. They tell very few, if any,people about the affair, to protect their secret. But..they didn't trust their AP to keep the secret? They didn't trust their ap was deleting pics and messages, so the OBS wouldn't find out? They didn't trust their AP to be as discreet?

Nearly every BS who questions if they should tell the obs, are told by their ws a series of excuses as to why their bs shouldn't tell..the obs is abusive, or already knows, etc,etc. That is because the ws is trying to protect their ap. Trying to protect their affair. Trying to protect themselves. Their ap absolutely trusted them to help hide the affair from everyone.

In this thread, many talk about the fantasy. It was a sweet little bubble they were in with their AP. Many thought the ap was special. They thought they loved the ap. Yet..part of that fantasy wasn't that they trusted them? This AP hung the moon..but they weren't trusted? Maybe now, with remorse and hard work, that's the mindset. But,at the time? It seems very difficult to believe trust wasn't a part of it.

As a very stark example. Our friend, InkHulk..his wife gave her AP her teenaged daughter's private phone number, so the child, and the AP, could talk privately. She trusted him with her child. THAT is an enormous amount of trust. At least, in this(my) mother's mind.

There seems to be an issue with generalizations on this thread. Seems to me, that saying ws don't trust their AP is a generalization. Because, certainly, some did. Maybe the ws commenting didn't. But, there are many examples here, every day, of ws trusting their AP.

OP..you don't think R is a good option. I believe you've reached that conclusion, based on your own experience, and seeing how many struggle,years from dday. Your feelings are valid.

Having been here awhile I believe true R is possible. I also believe it's very rare. I believe staying together doesn't equal a successful R. I think that's just as common. I also think many are reconciled, until they're not, because the ws did it again. Look how many bs return after years of successful reconciliation. I'm one of those. And he did the damn work. I'm not blind,or stupid. I knew what he needed to do. And he did it. IC, transparency, honesty,open,NC, answered questions, not defensive, etc. Not perfect. No. But he did the work. Whenever I would ready DaddyDom's posts, it would remind me of my husband. He was a FORMER ws, in every sense. And he did it again. So..yeah. I was reconciled. Until I wasn't. Do I believe in true R? Sure. But not as much as I did before my recent experience. And that is valid.

[This message edited by HellFire at 1:17 PM, Saturday, January 27th]

There seems to be an issue with generalizations on this thread. Seems to me, that saying ws don't trust their AP is a generalization.

The only reason I posted my experience is because the big generalization on this thread is that ws always trust the AP.

I didn’t say that no ws trusted their AP. I said it wasn’t a thing for me. Trust takes consistency.

The reality is that anything my AP said he would do he never followed through on. He actually was kind of a prick to me on many occasions. I never felt secure. The lack of security was part of the fuel for me.

Think about how many females you have known of that never wanted the nice guy, always picked the bad boy. I don’t think that really revolves around trust. It is more they are seeking someone emotionally unattainable because they don’t believe someone can really love them. They unconsciously seek out those relationships because if they can tame them then maybe they will finally feel worthy.

A lot of affairs are more about risk than love. And we are often delusional during their affair. it’s part of the imbalance that makes the attachment so strong.

I would also argue that there are many bs in this site that will tell you they love their ws but will never trust them again.

Trust is not needed for love or sex. Trust is sought by someone who is seeking a stable relationship.I don’t think a lot of ws have a plan past the day they are on.

Do I think it’s possible for a ws to trust their AP? Totally. But I also think and know it’s possible it’s not something that was ever even weighed.

The over arching point is that you can’t put logic on what’s illogical. Often the ws does is illogical and based on delusional thinking. That does not exonerate the crime, it’s not temporary insanity. How many bs have cited all the things their ws did that was nonsensical? That’s all I am saying.

That being said, yes of course some ws cheat again. Yes of course reconciliation isn’t for everyone. Whether it’s rare, I don’t know I would put 50/50 on it just knowing how many couples I know that stayed together after infidelity, many of them for decades afterwards. But I agree there is huge risk. I don’t think anyone here believes that everyone should reconcile. We tend to give advice in the vein of what the poster is trying to accomplish.

And I am very sorry for all you are going through hellfire. Truly.

[This message edited by hikingout at 4:29 PM, Saturday, January 27th]

There seems to be an issue with generalizations on this thread. Seems to me, that saying ws don't trust their AP is a generalization. Because, certainly, some did. Maybe the ws commenting didn't. But, there are many examples here, every day, of ws trusting their AP.

It seem sometimes people read what they want to and interpret things how it fits with their own narrative.

If you look back through this thread, many people have gone through lengthy detail to describe what is meant by fantasy. When it comes to trust, I even brought up the idea that there are different types of trust. If all of those lengthy explanations and the idea that there is only one type of trust are easily dismissed, then yes, you are left with generalizations.

I have learned to go by my gut and to follow Occam's Razor. The simpler the explanation when it comes to human nature, the more valid it is. Frankly, the long-winded explanations I read on here make my head hurt. My gut tells me that when it comes to long-winded explanations and human nature, these types of explanations are not to be trusted. I think anyone else including anyone who is Betrayed should learn to operate this very way.

I actually DON'T always think R is a bad idea. But I think we should casll things for how they are, and I agree w @hikingout that face value is all that matters. If for instance she told her AP she loved him, had kinky sex w AP she would not have with her husband, or good grief, had affair sex without using protection, then yes she trusted her AP. Her actions said that very clearly. And anyone who says otherwise is wrong.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 7:44 PM, Saturday, January 27th]

I am also deeply sorry for what you have gone through, @HellFire....

“The affair was not real”

It’s nothing more than typical cheater speak. Mental gymnastics.

Let’s say I drove drunk, ran into somebody, and killed them.

And then I tell the family of the dead person that “the drinking and driving wasn’t real.”

It was real enough to the person who died, it was plenty real to the family who lost their loved one.

No amount of psychological navel gazing is going to change that.

Do you think they care why I was drinking? Lost job, depression, childhood trauma, just plain stupid, etc. etc. No.

I don't have a narrative. I was expressing my feelings based on what I've read,and what's happened to me.

I see I was wrong to do that.

My apologies.

[This message edited by HellFire at 8:02 PM, Saturday, January 27th]

I am also deeply sorry for what you have gone through, @HellFire....

Thank you

This is interesting to me. My WH had random hookups to pretend he was in control. He hooked up with random women on Craigslist, anyone willing to let him tie them up and pretend to be dominant.

It was fantasy, for sure. But it was real. He felt in control, which was real to him. I recall a particularly painful moment when I was throwing our wedding crystal into the backyard, screaming, "do you feel in control now, bitch?"

lol, I can laugh about it now. Not really, actually I can still feel the rage. And the pain.

It was real. There is no doubt it was real.

It was real to his feelings. And he lives in a world where his feelings create his reality.

But I create my own reality, too. I think when he’s nice now it’s not real.

It feels like a death. Like saying it was fantasy or not real makes it feel like it’s forgettable. Like when someone dies and no one cares about them anymore. That’s why people erect graves and memorials. To make the person who no longer exists more real still.

Time passes and I only need my own memory to tell me it was real. There is no effigy or grave or memorial.

It was real and I have better shit to worry about than him and his control issues.

The people who cheat are so incredibly flawed. Like so ego centric that they don’t know how to join society yet. You’re asking a blind person to describe a sunset. They don’t know anything. Who cares what a cheater thinks? Might as well ask an actively hallucinating person about their reality. It counts about as much to me.

And my memorial of my pain is still there. Fuck his reality or fantasy, whatever it was.

Telling someone what they did to hurt another was "not real" is BY DEFINITION an incredibly invalidating thing to say to someone. You should validate someone’s pain. I understand why people get upset with that way of looking at things.

We serve them better by giving them the sobering truth.

I think the truth is it (R) may be possible, but not probable, the odds are against success, but the only way to know for sure is to go all in and try.

My gut tells me that when it comes to long-winded explanations and human nature, these types of explanations are not to be trusted.

First, I think I am trustworthy.

Second, humans are complex. Your reactions to their behaviors do not have to be.

Three, a lot of the long winded explanations is trying to find examples of things someone can relate to who hasn’t experienced it.

And four, if you do not want these explanations, why start a thread? You only want to hear from likeminded people?