SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

*****

We were a lot older than you on d-day. Our son was out of the house. One of my biggest fears was starting R and not completing it or not enjoying it because my W died. I never had to even contemplate nurturing my son through his grief.

What's underneath your desire to compare? Does it matter which is worse? Can you just feel your grief?

Your losses are great. The demands on you are great, and that makes it harder to feel the grief.

You say you built walls as if that's a problem. You built boundaries, which are like walls, but they're necessary. Besides, they're your walls. You control when to open a door or window.

I read lots of grief in your post, and that makes sense - you've lost a lot. It takes lots of time to process lots of grief.

How's life? How is the school treating your kid(s)?

(((Ntv)))

What's underneath your desire to compare?

Ah, nothing like all that. Just said I would and wanted to follow through.

Life is kinda meh. Moved to the pacific northwest, so cloudy and rainy every day. My boys are ok. Oldest is 18 and driving. He wants to he an actor...

Youngest is messy and energetic at 13. I wish I could invent a ray gun that can transfer his energy to me somehow.

I had a gig in the PNW in 2006. Started in Feb, and IIRC, we had rain on all or parts of the next 50-odd days. On plane trips going hope on weekends, people were ecstatic about seeing the sun again - going to Chicago, in the winter! Sure, we get sun, but it's c-o-l-d.

Notthevictem said

So... a compare and contrast of grief.

I'd like to say I put a lot of thought into this, but... that would imply I think about stuff and I don't wanna think about that. There is alot I could say, but I'll try and keep it relevant.

For those bh who don't know my story, I'm a bh who went through the reconciliation process and then later lost my wife to breast cancer. Meaning I'll be talking about how the two sources of grief impact me.

I’m so sorry you had to endure the pain of infidelity along with the loss of your wife. I appreciate your sharing the two types of grief and the impacts they have on you.

I can empathize to a degree. My WW and I started dating at 18, married at 21 and are 60 now. I found out in June of 2022 she had multiple affairs that covered the first 20 years of our marriage (the sordid details are in my story). R has been choppy at best. Lying, trickle truth, shame, minimizing, not doing the work. On February 18th of this year we had a "come to Jesus" type discussion and agreed on a plan to recover and reconcile. The next day my wife had a series of seizures. Long story short, she had a brain tumor. It isn’t the worst type but there isn’t really a "good type". Her prognosis is "OK" but the chance of recurrence is also pretty high.

Obviously, this shattered our plans for "doing the work". Even as she has recovered from surgery and having good days during chemo, there is no desire to speak of infidelity or do any work for recovery. I try to give her grace and understanding, but I feel the "cancer of infidelity" is eating away at me. She did ask me if she died without us reconciling, how would I feel. I said "I would feel we had unfinished business and an opportunity lost". She agreed.

My question for you:

Had you fully R’d by the time your wife fell ill? If not, how did that affect you? Did the infidelity get totally pushed away during her illlness?

I understand if this is too personal. If you prefer, not to respond, I understand. If you prefer a PM, that works for me as well.

I am asking mainly because I "don’t feel the way I think I should" with my wife being ill. Had I not learned of her infidelities, this would be breaking me down. It simply isn’t. I think that has to do with us not being healed. She even said getting cancer is "another reason not to like me". I still love her but it isn’t the same. She said this is "God punishing me and I deserve this". I don’t believe that but there is a piece of me that says "you reap what you sow".

This is just awfulness on top of awfulness and it’s all I can do to keep myself sane…..

[This message edited by ImaChump at 8:45 PM, Friday, November 17th]

She said this is "God punishing me and I deserve this". I don’t believe that but there is a piece of me that says "you reap what you sow".

So my wife said stuff like this. That it was karma and she deserved it. A part of that, I think was depression. A part of that was probably guilt.

The part of me that thought the 'reap what you sow' regrets it now... but that, I think is normal for grief. That you go back through and think of all the woulda, coulda, shoulda stuff.

Had you fully R’d by the time your wife fell ill? If not, how did that affect you? Did the infidelity get totally pushed away during her illlness?

I think partly no and partly yes. I think we reconciled as much as we COULD have at that point.

Hindsight, I wish I would have tried harder to let her in. Would that make her death better or worse? Idk.

In the past 2 years, several of my friends or family (even one of my dogs) have passed, and I don't know if it's just a wild grim reaper on a drinking binge or I'm turning into the protagonist of a country music song.

Either way, I'm being forced to understand, that in some ways life is short. Too short.

I understand if this is too personal. If you prefer, not to respond, I understand. If you prefer a PM, that works for me as well.

Hahaha, if the older posters saw you tell me this, they'd be laughing so hard they fart uncontrollably.

This is just awfulness on top of awfulness and it’s all I can do to keep myself sane…..

It truly is. I'm not going through both things at once and wouldn't wish either one alone on an enemy, let alone a double. There's a bit of madness that gets inflicted on us, at least for a while.

One of the hardest things to wrap my head around when I first found out was that her decision to cheat had literally nothing to do with me. So, for what it's worth, when you start to feel like you're losing it or breaking down, remember that YOU don't need to change*. That there is nothing wrong with you. You aren't the one that betrayed someone. That whatever is hamsterwheeling in your head and getting to that edge of obsessive... you can ask youself, "how will that be different between today and tomorrow?"

(*I'm running with the assumption you aren't a serial killer or politician or something, in which case you probably do need to change, but it's entirely unrelated to the infidelity.)

Thanks for responding Notthevictem. This is helpful for me.

In your original post comparing the grief you are experiencing, I can empathize with "emotionally the betrayal hurt worse". I think I was (and am) feeling guilt about that. I have lost all my grandparents, both my parents, numerous beloved pets, close friends and the betrayal hurts worse than all of that. I am struggling to find the empathy and compassion I feel that I SHOULD feel for my wife. But it’s almost like the "she" I treasured actually died when I found out about the betrayals. It’s hard to show her that kind of compassion when I feel she has basically "stolen my life"…

I think partly no and partly yes. I think we reconciled as much as we COULD have at that point.

Hindsight, I wish I would have tried harder to let her in. Would that make her death better or worse? Idk.

In the past 2 years, several of my friends or family (even one of my dogs) have passed, and I don't know if it's just a wild grim reaper on a drinking binge or I'm turning into the protagonist of a country music song.

Either way, I'm being forced to understand, that in some ways life is short. Too short.

In our case, it is more my wife "building walls" than me. She is extremely intimacy avoidant and that has been a huge detriment to our recovery. I have tried to develop a more intimate bond with her but she just can’t seem to "bare her soul" to me. That causes me to shut down in return and we continue to be "stuck".

I’m sorry you continue to suffer loss after loss. I don’t even take losing a dog lightly. We lost 2 on the same day a little over 2 years ago and it still breaks my heart. I have too felt like the protagonist in a country song at times. Like Al Bundy would sometimes say "Good one, God"….

One of the hardest things to wrap my head around when I first found out was that her decision to cheat had literally nothing to do with me. So, for what it's worth, when you start to feel like you're losing it or breaking down, remember that YOU don't need to change*. That there is nothing wrong with you. You aren't the one that betrayed someone. That whatever is hamsterwheeling in your head and getting to that edge of obsessive... you can ask youself, "how will that be different between today and tomorrow?"

(*I'm running with the assumption you aren't a serial killer or politician or something, in which case you probably do need to change, but it's entirely unrelated to the infidelity.)

I’m not a serial killer or politician (not sure there is a true distinction these days between the two!).

I struggled also with her "reasons" for cheating. Our marriage was total shit to really good. She was a 21 year old childless newlywed to a 41 year old very well-off woman who had been "married" for 20 years with 2 grown kids. Her cheating covered 20 years, 3 states and 7 jobs (met 90% of her APs at work). The common denominator was HER. In retrospect, she sabotaged the marriage to "justify" her cheating. I feel zero responsibility for her cheating. What I blame myself for his picking this type of person for a spouse, trusting her implicitly and not getting out when I was young enough to find a true life partner….

Thanks again and I hope you and your kids can find some peace from all of the losses you have suffered.

[This message edited by ImaChump at 2:00 PM, Tuesday, November 28th]

I don't check in too often anymore but did so today for some reason. I was happy to see your post NTV even if it wasn't joyful or joking. But halfway through the last one "farting" did enter the air or discussion.

I think I can relate to your situation somewhat, ImaChump. My xwife, however, isn't sick as far as I know but is still in my life to some extent because of our children and grandchildren. We had a pretty long marriage. There were times when there was distance between us most of which, I believe, was because of what I think was trickle truth about stuff long before the last LTA. I would then have the feeling that much was being hidden and kept secret from me.

What bothers me most now, ImaChump, is the things I didn't do that I should have. That I didn't react or do something when the huge red lights were flashing and the neon signs blazing. This occurred during the LTA but also while dating and engaged. I chose to ignore. Willful blindness, love bias, denial, etc., etc. Who knows? Those who invest the most, including in relationships, value them the most. They have the most commitment to them. They value and tr y to protect them. Those who value less feel less angst, if any. My xwife apparently felt no guilt or remorse while cheating, felt good about it, and would just come home to the "good" life. He LTA was with a work colleague that she supervised and with whom she travelled frequently. I've read that workplace adultery is one of the most difficult to catch.

I sympathize with the difficult position you are in. There is still that feeling that you must protect and care for the person with whom you made commitments. The feeling isn't there but the obligation is. The psychologist I went to for a long time asked me if I had forgiven myself for those things I didn't do. I must not have since they still plague me. Take care of yourself and give yourself some slack.

Thanks Steadychevy

What bothers me most now, ImaChump, is the things I didn't do that I should have. That I didn't react or do something when the huge red lights were flashing and the neon signs blazing. This occurred during the LTA but also while dating and engaged. I chose to ignore. Willful blindness, love bias, denial, etc., etc. Who knows? Those who invest the most, including in relationships, value them the most. They have the most commitment to them. They value and tr y to protect them. Those who value less feel less angst, if any. My xwife apparently felt no guilt or remorse while cheating, felt good about it, and would just come home to the "good" life. He LTA was with a work colleague that she supervised and with whom she travelled frequently. I've read that workplace adultery is one of the most difficult to catch.

I sympathize with the difficult position you are in. There is still that feeling that you must protect and care for the person with whom you made commitments. The feeling isn't there but the obligation is. The psychologist I went to for a long time asked me if I had forgiven myself for those things I didn't do. I must not have since they still plague me. Take care of yourself and give yourself some slack.

I read your story. Holy shit…..no wonder it still plagues you.

I too kick myself in the ass. Not so much for "missing the signs". I saw them for her early affairs. I challenged her. I believed her lies. I trusted her. Ultimately, that’s my mistake. Her last 3 affairs, she had gotten so good there really were no signs. I thought we had "made it" when we hit 20 years (but she was in her final LTA at the time). My wife also felt no guilt or remorse while cheating (hence the serial cheating). Even now, I think she is only guilty because I know. Not because of her actions…..

At this point I just lament my wasted chance at a better life. I’m not as pissed about the cheating so much as being "dragged along for the ride". If she didn’t want to be married, just set me free so I can find someone who does. Age, being retired, finances and now her illness have limited my options. You pretty much summed up my current life…."the feeling isn’t there, but the obligation is". But the selfish part of me is now kicking myself in the ass for not getting out before she got sick. And that’s making ME feel like shit.

At this point, I have to play this out. No one said life would be fair….

[This message edited by ImaChump at 2:30 AM, Wednesday, June 12th]

A lot of what I wrote, ImaChump, was after the fact and recognition in hindsight. Still, there were many things I should have recognized while dating that would have or should have been acted on. When married I went all in. It was a "for life" commitment. Things would happen, things were said that would make me question things during the marriage and it was denials, fake explanations and trickle truth. Trickle truth is death by a thousand cuts. I never did finish my story.

When the LTA adultery started in out 25th year of marriage either before or after my xwife made a pretty big deal of the 25th at church with a big cake and ice cream after the service I was soon uneasy about what was happening. When questioning her I was assured there was nothing except she had a very large project at work which was true. Trust your gut is a very true recommendation. Soon it was "I love you but I am not in love with you" and "I don't love you and don't think I ever did". That was in 2002. I went to the internet and found a website that recommended that if you think your spouse is cheating to "nice" them back. Total garbage and bad advice. I got the "if you think I'm cheating then you must be cheating" and a teary "I can't believe you think that of me" and swearing before God (we're born-again Christians). I started getting a PI but stopped because I thought that if she wasn't committing adultery and found out it might wreak my marriage. Stupid. I never did get proof until much later.

We separated in 2017 and the divorce was final in April 2020. I had been on pension for some time but was ranching. She retired from her job a few months after DDay and was getting her pensions. We could have lived reasonably well together but I couldn't look at her every day. It was killing me. We both need to watch our pennies now but I'd rather that than living in agony.

Anyway, ImaChump, we each have to find and make the best decision out of the bad choices we have available. There is no one right cooky cutter answer. My best wishes to you, ImaChump.

I would then have the feeling that much was being hidden and kept secret from me.

Yup! That gnawing feeling in my gut on a daily basis for 30 years now. What's weird is when she's gone for months at a time, 4 months this year alone on two trips visiting our son and granddaughter in LA, it doesn't bother me at all. It's only when she's around that at times my gut starts churning. "I'm going here, then I'm going there, etc." I've resisted the urge to spy on her because of what that does to me internally. She'll take it to her grave. Of that I'm sure.

As far as lamenting what I should have done in the past, it goes through my mind from time to time but passes quickly like a fart in a hurricane. I don't need to inflict more trauma on myself than I've already suffered. Then again I've been dealing with this mind**** a lot longer than most here. It took me years to get over my rage and the feeling that revenge must be taken. It's not worth it.

My theory is that the first time I saw my wife, that bastard Cupid shot me in the groin with his arrow but the arrow meant for her missed her completely. This explains a lot, at least in my case. That's my theory and I'm sticking to it.

To keep this from being to long and drawn out I’m going to say the deception is the worst part of an affair. I feel like the lies only covers the spoken untruths but in the case of my wife’s affair I have little doubt in my mind that there will alway be way more that I don’t know about what happened vs what was actually lied about and the next to nothing that was ever acknowledged truthfully.

Basically I had to via somewhat unscrupulous means confirm my wife had what appears to have been a tripod/my marriage made me do it affair. To add insult to injury it was with the best man from our wedding , but really in totality it is the deception that is brutal. When the realization sinks in that the person you thought you married turns out to be a complete stranger to you. It is a crushing feeling when you realize the person that vowed to cherish and love you through sickness and in health though thick and thin failed you on all those fronts in a very unceremonious way.

I’ll also say sometimes the reaction of the WS can also be incredibly damaging. My wife gaslit the hell out of me and ranted and carrying on about how she’d never do anything to hurt me while in the same triad carrying on about how I was only her husband and not her friend and then insinuating that if she got irritated enough with me she go out and "talk" with someone.

As bad as that is I’ve read far worse stories about some of the horrific things WS do sometimes. Granted I’m guessing you start getting into the true full blown NPD, BPD, and factor 1 and 2 types with notable sadistic tendencies when you reach that end of the spectrum. So I guess I can always at least be thankful for the fact the affair ended and I didn’t come home one day to an empty apartment with divorce papers and an injunction posted to the door.

So I guess I can always at least be thankful for the fact the affair ended and I didn’t come home one day to an empty apartment with divorce papers and an injunction posted to the door.

Why be thankful for that? Seriously.

So I guess I can always at least be thankful for the fact the affair ended and I didn’t come home one day to an empty apartment with divorce papers and an injunction posted to the door.

Why be thankful for that? Seriously.

I must concur with Nexther here. If you only have the info you have through "somewhat unscrupulous means" and your WW has gaslight you and given you "veiled threats", you are far from "out of the woods" even if the affair flamed out.

I would GLADLY have traded an empty apartment and divorce papers 38 years ago instead of 20 years of cheating, 18 years of lying by omission and 18 months of lying, trickle truthing and half-ass efforts at recovery.

You ARE correct in that the deception is the worst part of it all. Don’t stand for it….

Why be thankful for that? Seriously.

Different bites of the shit sandwich, I'd say. If I came home to that, what with having young children when I just found out), my shock would have been doubled or tripled, especially trying to catch up to someone 2 steps ahead in the divorce process and locatethe kiddos.

I could barely deal with the shock that I got.

It might look like it'd be easier to write off and say 'well, there's no doubt about her being an unrepentant arsehole', that there would be no reason to offer reconciliation.... which is probably true. It's probably also true that some who got that kinda treatment has a bigger 'what did I do?' and 'why didn't I see?' emotional mountain to climb.

So, pros and cons, pros and cons.

I mean, which is worse: a fart that makes you wanna vomit for 10 seconds or one that makes you queasy for 30? Personal preference/tolerance there, I'd imagine.

I can't help but notice that being in R and still having less than sufficient truth from a WW is depressingly common.

I spent weeks trying to get the whole truth back in the day before the rugsweep (fall 2006). Essentially the stonewalling and sheer emotional exhaustion from shock and humilation wore me out. I gave up. I revisited the issue once more in 2007 I think to no additional information. She simply wasn't even going to confess to all of what I could reason out from what I could outright prove. Forget it, bud, you aren't worth the truth. It wasn't too embarrassing to be sexually involved with another man but it was to talk about it!

From that point forward, all conversations in the marriage (that involved boundries, dealbreakers, resentments, feelings about how other relationships were risky etc.) were conducted with her affair in mind but without acknowledging it openly. This was so tiring, and it led to many half-assed solutions to marital issues.

This summer I got on a fast moving trigger train and without a willingness to fall back into any of my old coping mechanisms I found that the affair just would not go back under the carpet.

So here we are, reconstructing the worst part of my adult life over 17 years later. She has come up with significant expansion of "all of it" which I appreciate. But it still feels like a shooting script with AP as the villain and my biggest pain points just a big ICR.

I hope you gents get your full truth. You deserve it. If your WW's are actually remorseful they will show you that respect due and give it to you. If not, I hope you find the strength to consequence them as appropriate.

Forget it, bud, you aren't worth the truth. It wasn't too embarrassing to be sexually involved with another man but it was to talk about it!

These are my thoughts EXACTLY. I have repeatedly said to my wife "you had the ability to DO these things, why can’t you discuss them with the person you SHOULD be closest to in the world". IMO, that’s "continuing to betray" me.

I got lied to continually when the affairs were going on. She denied me the truth when she could remember it all. I truly believe there are some parts she can’t remember (but not remembering the first time she ever had sex with someone besides me stretches credibility). But I also believe a lot of that has to do with NOT WANTING to remember. She can remember little stupid shit from 40 years ago (especially if it was something "wrong" I did). She just shuts down in tears when her affairs come up……more betrayal.

I told her "I don’t feel like you trust me enough to get to the truth". That shocked her but she didn’t deny it either.

Imachump,

I've read a fair number of your older posts. You are not a chump, you are an abused husband.

You get what I'm saying though, my wife has a really strong "shame wall" about some stuff but that wall had to come down. She was defensively making up unbelievable nonsense details and aggressively doubling down on it as recently as November. That seems to be over with though, which is good because my gaslighting tolerance at this point is ZERO. I don't want to be managed. I want (must have!) a window into the illicit relationship that stole from my marriage and which involved Dickhead having a window into that marriage.

Expecting the truth from a cheater and a liar is a fool's game. "How many times did you have sex?" "Did you have oral, anal, any other type of sex?" What's the point of asking her these questions when I won't believe anything she tells me? After all these years of gaslighting and lying to my face over even trivial matters, why should I?

For some it's of utmost importance to know every detail, and I understand and respect that, but as for me I no longer ask because it only leads to more chaos and stress. "You win honey. I'll shut up now."

My personal goal for 2024 is to be able to walk normally again without pain and weakness in my legs. Getting hit by a car while walking my dog will do that. I have an appointment on Thursday with a chiropractor. After that it'll be time to reschedule appointments with a trauma specialist. As has been advised on this site over and over again for many years; take care of yourself first.

What WW chooses to do with herself is her business alone. The main lesson I've learned out of all of this is that it's not my job to change or fix her. Even if I could it would be arrogant of me to try.

Happy New Year to all the betrayed men.
I stand by everyone of you and feel your pain.
Mr. Kite
I hope you are able to heal and feel no pain from the car hitting you and your best friend.
Glad to see you checked in Steady.
Be well all.

Mr. Kite
I hope you are able to heal and feel no pain from the car hitting you and your best friend.

Thank you for your kind words. Luckily my dog, Hank, wasn't injured.