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I have to say, I vaguely remember your posts. Long, long time ago. 20+ years ago for me as well. I chose D at the time.
You know, we’ve all seen WS such as yours. I can’t remember a time where someone like that ever made any strides in remorse until serious consequences were coming right at them. Maybe someone else here does, but I don’t.
It’s never too late to make decisions. Think of your recovery as it was just put in suspended animation. Because you’re going to get many variations from her of "it was so long ago.., blah blah blah" the more you get into this, and you NEED to get this dealt with one way or another.
Decide what you want. More of what you have now til the end of your life or something else?

You know, we’ve all seen WS such as yours. I can’t remember a time where someone like that ever made any strides in remorse until serious consequences were coming right at them. Maybe someone else here does, but I don’t.

OhItsYou:

That’s a troubling reality and illustrates why you don’t do what I did - enter a half-assed reconciliation with ineffective counseling that allowed her to blame her affair on the problems in the marriage. I think any form of counseling that does that should be outlawed.

There were good reasons to commit to reconciliation, and I do believe my five children benefited from growing up in a stable, really loving in most ways (after the affair ended), home.

In retrospect I wish I would have waited to disclose what I knew until I had met with a lawyer, considered all my options, and then exposed everything all at once to her, the OM and the OM’s wife, along with a filing for divorce. And if at that point she begged to reconcile then it would be with a therapist who understood this issue thoroughly and didn’t allow her to blame the marriage.

For anyone just entering this Valley of the Shadow of Death, learn from my mistakes. You have a chance to do it right, now.

Now, I need to commit to dealing with this correctly now so I don’t return to SI ever again with this sob story wondering why I’m in the fix I’m in.

Sorry if you’ve answered this already, and please dont think I put what you did and what she did on an equal plane, but did you ever apologize for the pain you caused in your earlier years? Do you think she believes you showed remorse for that in her mind?

I tend to be a bit passive aggressive I know, but I also believe in honesty stating what you need to stay in a relationship and then beginning the process to move on Alone until you get it.

So if you’re going to ask for a display of true remorse it’s possible you’ll need to remind her how you showed the same to her, perhaps even restating it, when you then are ready to ask her to give you what you desire.

So it would be helpful to know if you feel you delivered to her what you are looking for from her before I am able to give more thorough advice.

Thanks.

Steve:

Great point. I believe I have, but would not be surprised if she feels a need to dig into that area as well. I’m more than happy to go there.

I’m wrestling also whether it’s a show of remorse I need or moreso just full and complete answers from that era in our lives that I don’t believed I got - disclosure was a few answered questions in one counseling session that nailed down her statements about when the affair started and ended and a bit of the in between - but there is much more I’d like to ask about - including whether the affair continued for a time underground - which I suspect.

I’m not saying you are, but don’t get yourself caught up in the mindset of "oh if I had just done it right the first time." I made almost every mistake in the book. At first.
Your head was spinning faster than you could have caught it at the time.
Now, you have your head on mostly straight. You know what you should have done then, so do it now.
Back then was the best time to deal with this correctly. Right now is the second best time.

Maybe you tried to close the book on all of that through your own healing by addressing your own demons. But part of the unfaithfuls journey is addressing their demons and attoning for them. Resuming your marriage and sex life even with full fidelity is not addressing her demons. Remorse and empathy are pretty fundamental parts of her journey. Your looking for puzzle pieces blind folded. In the end I assume you want to know that she values you enough to give you that. The whole you, not just the safety and security you provide. Maybe you were too afraid to let her go. I know I was. But I did and I divorced her. I am happy with my choice - in the end true remorse and change on her part outweighed the fear of letting her go. The fear of rebuilding my life. Being locked in and fully invested is difficult without someone who is as equally invested. At this point she has alot more to lose. And lot more gain by addressing her demons. Rip the bandaid off imo. The wound is still ripe with pain. Maybe you can grow together - ideally that's what two partners should strive for. Maybe she's also dying inside to get the remorse out but is also paralyzed by fear as well. Maybe her fear is different than yours but the only way you two can heal from it is by facing it.

JB,

I’m wrestling also whether it’s a show of remorse I need or moreso just full and complete answers from that era in our lives that I don’t believed I got - disclosure was a few answered questions in one counseling session that nailed down her statements about when the affair started and ended and a bit of the in between - but there is much more I’d like to ask about - including whether the affair continued for a time underground - which I suspect.

I think this is the crux of your problem.

You have too many unanswered questions about your WWs A. What is stopping you from asking those questions now? You seem scared to ask your WW questions that you have a right to have answers to? Are you worried that she could confirm what you fear?

You do realise that by letting your WW keep secrets of her A, her A still continues in some form of another. There are still things she holds dear between her and her AP, and she could well be holding on to them fondly, hence her apparent lack of remorse.

At the moment, you are giving up parts of yourself to make sure others are comfortable. Keeping the family blissfully unaware of what happened, whilst you are dying inside.

If your goal is to keep everyone else happy at your own expense, then carry on. If you would like to heal yourself, then you will need to crack a few eggs.

RR

OhItsYou: (love that name)

You know what you should have done then, so do it now.
Back then was the best time to deal with this correctly. Right now is the second best time

Great advice. Well received

Fit43

Being locked in and fully invested is difficult without someone who is as equally invested. At this point she has alot more to lose. And lot more gain by addressing her demons. Rip the bandaid off imo. The wound is still ripe with pain. Maybe you can grow together - ideally that's what two partners should strive for. Maybe she's also dying inside to get the remorse out but is also paralyzed by fear as well. Maybe her fear is different than yours but the only way you two can heal from it is by facing it.

I do believe she cannot be emotionally whole until she wrestles with those very things. As I’ve said, in many ways our marriage is emotionally, sexually satisfying - so there is some reticence to disrupt that and somehow have the wheels come off again. On the other thanks - the wheels have never all come off at the same time - so we certainly should be able to weather some introspection. And I think she won’t ever be the partner she can be without that. Thanks

At the moment, you are giving up parts of yourself to make sure others are comfortable. Keeping the family blissfully unaware of what happened, whilst you are dying inside.

If your goal is to keep everyone else happy at your own expense, then carry on. If you would like to heal yourself, then you will need to crack a few eggs.

Agreed. Or as others here have put it, you are "Lighting yourself on fire to keep her warm". Stop doing that.

RocketRacoon

You do realise that by letting your WW keep secrets of her A, her A still continues in some form of another. There are still things she holds dear between her and her AP, and she could well be holding on to them fondly, hence her apparent lack of remorse.

At the moment, you are giving up parts of yourself to make sure others are comfortable. Keeping the family blissfully unaware of what happened, whilst you are dying inside.

If your goal is to keep everyone else happy at your own expense, then carry on. If you would like to heal yourself, then you will need to crack a few eggs

Well said. If that is the case, that she holds even a hint of fondness for her time with that POS, then I want that poison addressed. I would not be down with that in any shape, form or fashion.

she holds even a hint of fondness for her time with that POS, then I want that poison addressed.

Yes, and am sure you have other things to be addressed also.

A basic requirement for any sort of true R is that the WS has to be transparent. If you do not have the full picture, you do not know what you are forgiving or reconciling. From what you have posted, your WW has only given you enough to make you stay on. Would not be surprised if the A never stopped, and she is just putting on an act for you to keep you around for her convenience.

If you take a look at a WS who is truly remorseful, they open up themselves to their BS. They show with their actions that they are thankful for the chance they were given to try R. Right now, your WW seems to be either resigned that she has to stay with you, or she is putting on an act for you whilst she pines for her AP.

It looks like there are too unanswered things in your case, and your WW does not want to answer them. If she says that the answers will only hurt you more, then it is highly probable that she has a lot more kept secret from you. She did not care about hurting you when she had her A, so why the concern now?

RR

Dear JimBetrayed62, I am sorry to read your story. What a terrible betrayal, and you had to live with it while it was happening. I'm so glad you had the counselor who helped you get some of the facts straight so that you could end the affair, and that you've been able to experience some healing and some peace in your marriage.

I will write you a message that is based on your Christian faith (which I share) and also on the likelihood that you will continue in the marriage (which of course you don't have to do).

I believe the HS is nudging you to re-enter this part of your life and your marriage because it is the right time to do so, but not only for you. Also for your wife. I am grateful to my husband that in the midst of his pain, he patiently and insistently helped me to understand the TRUTH of what happened. I came to understand that there are areas of life where my vision is warped and where I need help, and that my husband is the person who is best able to help me, not only because he knows me well but because he wants the best for me. Your wife is probably still carrying around a warped view of what happened, her part in the destruction of not one but two marriages, the parts of herself that need to be fixed up, and so on. And look . . . she is fortunate enough to have you to help her! It is an incredible gift that exactly what she needs is the thing that will be healing to you (that you have a shared understanding of what happened and the depths of the evil of it). But even more than that, she will come to know that she has a husband who is better than she could imagine. I had such a wonderful dream one night. I was living in a small and dark studio apartment. I was pretty happy in it despite the shabby surroundings. I found a door I had never opened, and it opened into a beautiful, sun-lit, tastefully decorated, comfortable home. I remember rolling over to my husband and saying "I had a dream about you. I didn't know that I had this wonderful thing right in front of me."

Just as an aside, it took a LONG time for us to get to this place, we are still very much a work in progress, and there was a lot of discomfort and pain (learning how to tolerate discomfort and pain is key. Hebrews is good for that).

So all that to say, you are begin nudged to address this not only for your own sake, but also for hers. I imagine she will resist, be unhappy, not thank you for it, and perhaps eventually start to engage in the healing process. Or not. I will pray for you.

Pippin: thanks for your comments. I keyed in especially on this:

I believe the HS is nudging you to re-enter this part of your life and your marriage because it is the right time to do so, but not only for you. Also for your wife. I am grateful to my husband that in the midst of his pain, he patiently and insistently helped me to understand the TRUTH of what happened. I came to understand that there are areas of life where my vision is warped and where I need help, and that my husband is the person who is best able to help me, not only because he knows me well but because he wants the best for me. Your wife is probably still carrying around a warped view of what happened, her part in the destruction of not one but two marriages, the parts of herself that need to be fixed up, and so on. And look . . . she is fortunate enough to have you to help her!

One of the reasons I stayed in this marriage was not only for our five kids but also because I fervently believe that Jesus, who forgave each of us, wants us to do the same. I believe that the highest call for any Christian is to forgive even the most heinous acts - including adultery - because it is a picture and representation of what He did for us. Ephesians is especially powerful in this regard, describing marriage as a representation of Christ and His bride, the church. And the Old Testament repeatedly describes Israel as an adulterous wife whom the Lord still pursues even as His heart is broken and he is furious over the breach of trust. I remember once sensing the Lord had invited me into a very special privilege in this - as I walked through what seemed like my death in my wife's affair, I saw I had been given a chance to not only see His love for us - but experience the reality of what that looks like it in a way I could have never done without this awful experience. I was given the privilege of learning to love as Jesus does.

This of course does not mean I must be some sort of pushover - there are limits, and divorce is always an exit door I can take. And God says I can freely take it if needed.

But I think I see a light at the end of a tunnel, and your experience is that light and insight I am seeking.

I love your dream - and I think that was a great picture from the Lord to let you see the gift He had given you in your husband. (And you are His gift to your husband as well.)

I had a couple of dreams that occurred as a wrestled with healing from all of this, and they depicted my inner turmoil, and determination to be healed of this:

Dream No 1

I dreamed that my wife and I were together and we were interviewing another man who had responded to an ad we had placed for a second husband/lover for my wife. I apparently had given up attempting to satisfy her, and recognizing I would never be enough for her, I had I believe with her agreement placed this ad. This man had responded, and we were interviewing him, when suddenly something rose up within me and decided "Hell no – I’m not agreeing to this arrangement" grabbed the man by the throat and told him to go away and never come back.

I believe this was dream revealing I needed to insist on having her heart - and not sharing it with another. This is what this final step is about, I believe.

Dream No. 2

I had a dream in which a man and woman were determined to kill or injure or me. I started at them, and finally said, ‘OK, let’s do this,’ and they attacked me. I leaned forward to fend them off. The man tried stabbing me in the heart, but made only a shallow penetration in my chest while I held the woman off. I saw no blood. He said we need to finish him off, but I continued to hold them off. The dream ends.

I believe this was my internalization of the Enemy's attempts to destroy my heart through the affair. And how I must protect my heart from being destroyed in this my grief and hatred.

Anyway, thank you Pippin for your insights. I am determined to try and wrestle with full reconciliation either in counseling or just pushing my wife to have some serious, focused discussions on this, for not only my healing but hers as well. THank you for your prayers.

[This message edited by JimBetrayed62 at 11:05 PM, Sunday, January 26th]

I see parallels between your history and mine with Pippin. Here are several thoughts that might be encouraging.

1: The biblical ideal for marriage is "one flesh", rendered "one organism" by C.S. Lewis. It is good that you want to get closer to her.

2: It hurts to be confronted with evidence suggesting that your wife doesn't really want you. But there is evidence that she does. Most importantly, she chose to marry you.

3: I wonder if there is some shame in your wife's distant past that she is reluctant to share with you. Are you familiar with her experiences with men/boys before you were married, and was there abuse?

4: C.S. Lewis on Ephesians: "This headship, then, is most fully embodied not in the husband we should all wish to be but in him whose marriage is most like a crufixion." Perhaps carrying this burden with your wife is what you are called to do.

I hope you and your wife are able to find a healthy path forward together. It asks a lot of you, and I believe it is possible.

Shadowfax: Thank you for the encouragement. Our shared experiences give me hope and confidence, and I appreciate that we have both walked through this Valley of the Shadow of Death.

Each statement contained a pearl of wisdom for me:

1: The biblical ideal for marriage is "one flesh", rendered "one organism" by C.S. Lewis. It is good that you want to get closer to her.

This is the reality of our union as man and wife, and why affairs, divorce, etc. is so destructive. It literally is ripping a life apart.

2: It hurts to be confronted with evidence suggesting that your wife doesn't really want you. But there is evidence that she does. Most importantly, she chose to marry you.

I have to keep reminding me of this reality. Even with the ugly things that were said during and after the affair - and the lack of any real struggle to confront my own pain - the fact is she has re-engaged, shows love frequently, and is intimate with me possibly in greater ways than before - these are all tokens that this love is genuine.

3. I wonder if there is some shame in your wife's distant past that she is reluctant to share with you. Are you familiar with her experiences with men/boys before you were married, and was there abuse?

Good question. I know her mother used shame, criticism and that I believe that scarred her emotionally somewhat so that she recoils at admitting fault, etc. She does not like to apologize, probably because as a child it would mean her mother could then emotionally abuse her. It is a traumatic thing to her, I think, to admit wrongdoing. I am hoping she can delve into this in IC.

4: C.S. Lewis on Ephesians: "This headship, then, is most fully embodied not in the husband we should all wish to be but in him whose marriage is most like a crufixion." Perhaps carrying this burden with your wife is what you are called to do.

"Take up your cross and follow me" is the call for all of us; it is lived out in a variety of ways, but one sure way to experience it is to be the BS in an affair and walk through forgiveness.

Again, thank you for your wisdom and taking the time to comment. My best to you both

You are a rock star. You had the courage to expose the affair to the OBS, which gave her agency in her own life. That is a huge step not everyone takes. There is a lot to admire about how you handled things.

CantBeMeEither:

You are a rock star. You had the courage to expose the affair to the OBS, which gave her agency in her own life. That is a huge step not everyone takes. There is a lot to admire about how you handled things.

Thanks. I just realized, however, that I didn't have my timeline right....it was a more than a year after I confronted him and my wife before I outed the affair to the OM's spouse. I had warned him to stay away from my wife, which meant he would have to have a proxy go to the quarterly meetings on his behalf. I incredibly felt it wasn't time to go DEFCON4 and tell the OM's spouse if he kept up his end of the bargain.

So he sent proxies to the quarterly meetings for a full year. A year later, I suspected something. (and I knew it immediately; something had changed in my wife's demeanor that weekend as she went to the quarterly meeting). So I did my sleuthing to confirm he came to the meeting just during the day, allegedly.

Anyway, that was the final straw. I got my material together, including the PI and DNA report, and without even telling him first called his wife and spilled it all. I think that's when the affair really ended in my wife's heart, because the OM's wife called her the next day, cussed her out for being a whore, and told her to stay away from her husband.