SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Today I'm feeling frustrated and confused about what to do about my relationship.

TLDR:
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I feel that recent progress my wife has shown might just be my wife stuffing her feelings again, and not doing genuine work to address what led her to betray in the first place.

I don't know the best way to handle this situation.
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For those who have not been following me, a little back story:

My wife confessed her infidelity to me in spring of 2024. A year long affair with another man that involved a pregnancy and an abortion. Soon after her revelation, like within a week, she started blaming me for things that happened in our marriage before the affair. She had a LOT of anger, resentment, and bitterness towards me, and every time we fought she redirected our conversations back to her complaints about "the marriage" before the affair and her criticisms of me - which are essentially the same thing. She was highly resistant to anything I suggested she do, and any "advice" I might have on how we could salvage our relationship. She hates this site, and strongly prefers normal marital counselors because they are "experts" which I strongly disagree with.

She would say things like "you need to take responsibility for your part in our bad marriage", and "you hurt me too!", and "affairs don't happen in a vacuum", and other things that I know now pretty much every wayward says, but I took them to heart back then. I doubled down on the pick me dance and did everything I could to make her happy, but of course the desolation and trauma that I was experiencing caused that to go off the rails on a regular basis.

Now don't get me wrong, these are the parts I complain about because they are what I view as a problem. However she has done a lot to help our relationship and to help me with this trauma. She is normally very kind to me and helps me when I'm having hard days. It's definitely not like she is all bad or not doing a lot. If that were the case I would have left long ago. Instead I've remained in this strange middle ground or limbo where I don't feel bad enough to pull the plug, but don't feel good enough to be able to convince myself that all is well.

This constant bringing up the past has been a real problem. Every time I did or said anything that caused her to feel defensive, bought up her shame or guilt, or highlighted the fear that I might leave, she would reflexively lash out with criticism. Since most of our conversations about the affair cause these feelings in her, most of them got redirected back to my faults somehow. It was extremely frustrating. So much so that I now refuse to discuss these issues at all since all of our conversations go in circles and those circles always seem to end with blame on me.

Anyway 6 months ago we started seeing my counselor as a couples counselor. Almost all of our sessions have resulted in continuous bickering and fighting. We have made some progress but it's been very small progress and very arduous. In between sessions, or arguments things are mostly good.

I still struggle with the affair, and she has been doing much better. Less anger towards me, less bringing up the past, more seeming to understand where I'm coming from etc. I was very hopeful until this week when we had a session go off the rails.

In our session I asked her to work on communication about finances because that is another issue we have argued about a fair amount. Essentially I asked her to be less defensive and to communicate with me more about it instead of it resulting in fighting.

This caused her to get extremely defensive, and we spent the next hour and a half arguing with her again bringing up all the things from the past, criticizing me for all sorts of things and essentially reverting to six months prior.

She said that she had essentially been setting her stuff aside to help me, and is not getting the same back from me.

We left the session and I felt lower about our chances of success than I had for those six months. I asked the therapist if it's normal for couples to fight as much as we do in sessions and he said that he does not see that normally.

The next morning I brought it up again complaining that I needed her to stop sabotaging our conversations and getting so defensive and things like that. Another huge fight. We each said things we weren't proud of and later that day we apologized to each other and made up.

But those two days has left me feeling like she is not really working on the core of why she betrayed me. These hard feelings from the past are a big part of why she was unhappy, and what eventually led to her betrayal, and she is over here doing what she has always done in our relationship - acting like a martyr and stuffing her feelings "for the sake of our relationship". I told her that this is not acceptable and that I need her to be working on resolving these things with her therapist.

Our relationship is still mostly good, and she is doing a lot, but this stuff is weighing on me.

Now I have conflicting ways I want to handle this situation:

- I want to insist that we see an affair specialist instead of a general relationship counselor.

- I want to insist that we go take an infidelity course at one of those places designed to help people recover from infidelity.

- I'm exhausted and I want to take a 6 month moratorium on discussing the affair, and stop seeing the couples counselor for that time. I have gotten a lot of advice on this site about not trying to force the outcome and stepping back and letting her do her thing. Maybe thats the right path.

- I want to tell her to find a new individual counselor because clearly they are not making progress on this issue and I suspect that her counselor is actually advising her to continue pushing this issue with me. This is likely a no go though as this is an off limits conversation topic for her.

I have had plenty of advice here and much of it says that this is her thing and not only can I not force her to change but that I need to allow her the space to do just that. But now I'm afraid that she is just stuffing her feelings again, and not really dealing with it. I'm also tired of going to therapy where we essentially pay to argue in front of a therapist.

How would you handle this situation?

P. S. Sorry for the very long post. I felt that I needed to give proper context.

[This message edited by Theevent at 7:28 PM, Sunday, May 31st]

I also wanted to say that often the advice I get here is to communicate that divorce is a real option. I think she is very aware of that, and I know it's a bad idea to threaten divorce if one is not really willing to go through with it, and at this point I'm not there.

I still love her and hope we can work it out. Yes I struggle with this question, and I especially struggled with it after that therapy session. But however this ends up I want to be able to say I really gave it my all before pulling the plug. It doesn't seem right to go down that road while she is still trying.

However give it my all does not translate to taking blame that is not mine, or allowing this to be swept under the rug. I need real reconciliation to happen where I feel like issues between us have been resolved, and she has changed into a safe partner.

Has your wife read How to Help Your Spouse Heal by Linda J McDonald?

It really is step one if she isn't reading here from WS who take responsibility for their choices. Sounds like she isn't reading here because she is avoiding responsibility.

Until she owns ALL of her choices, there is no healing the M.

I absolutely had to learn to be a better partner, but nothing can go forward, until you feel safe.

That's your lead line:

"I do not feel safe in this M."

I'm betting you have already told her you will work on you, but if she still thinks the M caused her to run to another person -- she isn't safe.

It begs the question she needs to answer, what happens the next time she is angry with you and the M?

In essence, let us say you wake up tomorrow, and you accept all the BLAME she is trying to give you. Now what? You're just as unsafe as ever, because she hasn't accepted the idea that ADDING a THIRD person to a marriage ALWAYS makes it worse. There is no defense.

Cheating does happen based on the choices of ONE partner.

It really is that simple.

Until she owns it, you don't have someone you can work with.

Stepping back for six months without talking about your concerns will basically leave you feeling the way you do today.

You have to reach a point where you ask for what you require to stay, you have to heal enough to let go of the outcome.

It takes two people to want to save the M.

[This message edited by Oldwounds at 8:32 PM, Sunday, May 31st]

Oldwounds
Thanks for taking the time to read through all that.

Has your wife read How to Help Your Spouse Heal by Linda J McDonald?

Yes. She listened to the audio book in fall of 2024, absolutely hated it. I complained several times over the next 10 months that she listened to it, hated it, and didn't implement anything Linda suggested in the book. She agreed to read it this time and spent her time underlining the parts where she felt that she was doing as the book suggested.

She feels that the book paints the wayward partner in more of a bad light than they should be, and doesn't take their side into account at all, or take a compassionate view of them and what they are going through. She said reading the book made her feel worse about herself.

I'm betting you have already told her you will work on you, but if she still thinks the M caused her to run to another person -- she isn't safe.

I have explained several times that I will work on the things that bother her NOW, and try to be a better listener and see things from her perspective where I can.

Yet she continues bringing this stuff up.

She wants me to admit fault, apologize, and convince her that I am never going to act that way again in future similar situations. I disagree that I acted the way she complains I did at all. We have no common ground, and have talked about this over and over with us ending up in the exact same place. She won't let it go.

Lately I've realized that whats probably happening is she isn't really upset about this stuff necessarily. But she is feeling shame and guilt, and she feels that I could leave at any time now because an affair is such a good reason to leave. So whenever she feels shame and guilt her defenses come up and she starts lashing out defending herself by bringing up all the faults she feels that I have. It seems like she is trying to level the playing field between us because she is afraid that our relationship will be unbalanced. So she brings up all this stuff, and she says things like "well you hurt me too!", and "you did wrong too!" and similar things like that.

She has also in the past made statements that indicate she feels that the "conditions in the relationship" led to her affair.

This is true from the perspective of thing made her unhappy -> she responded with an affair.

But I'm concerned that this view is taking away personal responsibility for how she reacted to her unhappiness. She wants to focus on the things that made her unhappy rather than focus on the ways she handled those feelings.

This part of your comment applies directly to what I'm saying:

In essence, let us say you wake up tomorrow, and you accept all the BLAME she is trying to give you. Now what? You're just as unsafe as ever, because she hasn't accepted the idea that ADDING a THIRD person to a marriage ALWAYS makes it worse. There is no defense.

This part is what has been hard for me:

It takes two people to want to save the M.

I believe she really does want to save the marriage, but that bad therapists and her trauma are getting in the way.

...she is not really working on the core of why she betrayed me. These hard feelings from the past are a big part of why she was unhappy, and what eventually led to her betrayal,

The state of a marriage has absolutely nothing at all to do with why a spouse chooses to take a stroll down Infidelity Lane. I've read from more than enough BS and WS to know this as axiomatic.

Some BS will freely admit that their marriages were already on the rocks or that they could have been a better spouse. Some truly believed they had a great marriage and know that they were a good spouse. And, of course, there's everything in between.

Some WS will freely admit that they had a good marriage and that their BS was a good spouse. Others will justifiably complain that their marriages were already on the rocks and that their BS could have been a better spouse. Not all BS are saints. And then, of course, there's everything in between.

None of that fucking matters one fucking iota. The state of a marriage has absolutely nothing at all to do it.

Let that sink in, brother. And then, make it perfectly clear to your wife. Her decision to betray herself had absolutely nothing at all to do with the state of your marriage and EVERYTHING to do with her unwillingness or inability to cope with her own issues.

Infidelity is self-destructive. Sometimes people simply break. It happens. They are either unwilling or unable to cope with their own issues in healthy ways. They reach out for anything to help numb the pain or escape from it. They betray themselves and their own best interests.

Your wife seems to be stuck in her own shame. She's either unwilling or unable to focus on her own issues and do her best to unravel whatever issues she has - issues that have been tripping her up for most of her life, issues she had long before you ever met her.

But however this ends up I want to be able to say I really gave it my all before pulling the plug.

Understandable. I think most betrayed spouses feel the same way. Here's the thing, though. The bulk of the work in R falls squarely on the shoulders of the wayward spouse. You can do what you can to heal yourself, to improve yourself, to offer grace and acceptance. You cannot, however, force her into doing the work that reconciliation requires.

Hi,

I am a WW and I was reacting very much like your wife at first. This was mainly because that was all I knew about "cheating" from TV, the environment I grew up in etc.. I genuinely had no clue of the real "anatomy" of an A and how to start working towards reconciliation.

Unfortunately, many therapists don’t know either. My own therapist is great when we work through my stuff and roots of things, but I don’t see her particularly helpful when we discuss how to move forward from infidelity.

What changed my perspective was this forum. It was incredibly painful at first to realise what I had actually done, but I am glad I kept reading because I finally started getting many things (still getting them).

Are there any similar forum where she could find a similar community? Maybe just reading and absorbing what she reads could help her move forward.

Lastly, what also helped me get less difensive was this book "Rising Strong" by Rene Brown (hikingout recommended it to me).

[This message edited by LonelyGuilty at 10:11 PM, Sunday, May 31st]

Unhinged

The state of a marriage has absolutely nothing at all to do with why a spouse chooses to take a stroll down Infidelity Lane.

I 100% agree with this. I can see how it sounded like maybe I was saying the marriage caused her to have an affair. I don't believe that at all.

What I'm saying is there are things she was clearly unhappy with in our relationship. She mostly kept those to herself, and blew them out of proportion in her mind. Those are the things she keeps bringing up, and those are the things that I'm convinced made her unhappy enough to try and "fix" her unhappiness by having an affair.

Are the things she was upset about the cause of the affair? No way. I'm convinced if I had done everything correctly in her mind, she would have still cheated. She would have just used other excuses. Maybe she would have fallen in "love" with him. Or maybe a family member would pass and it would be really hard for her. Or insert any situation that causes confusing or difficult emotions. As you say, it's not the relationship, or problems in it. It's simply an unhealthy coping mechanism that I had nothing whatsoever to do with.

In our case we had a happy marriage. In fact the year she cheated on me was one of the highlights of our relationship. One of the best years we have had. Neither one of us are perfect, and thus we cannot have a perfect marriage. There are always bumps in the road. She hid 90% of her issues from me. She hid trauma from childhood from me. She hid many many things. Her deception is not on me.

... make it perfectly clear to your wife. Her decision to betray herself had absolutely nothing at all to do with the state of your marriage and EVERYTHING to do with her unwillingness or inability to cope with her own issues.

Again 100% agreement here, and I have made this case as far as the affair goes. I don't tolerate her saying or implying that our relationship caused her affair, and she is not dumb enough to continue making statements like this.

If you can believe it, these things she has been bringing up in every fight for the last two years, she does not see as connected to the affair. She has said from the start that she "takes full responsibility" for her affair. She feels like we are in the rebuild marriage phase of reconciliation (I guess from day 1), and that in that phase we need to have equality between us, and that we each need to make sure we are happy in the relationship. She wants this resolved from that angle, somehow not even related to the affair in her head. She said just this week that she keeps bringing it up because she needs to feel that it's resolved, and since our marriage was about to explode any way she might as well bring up things she has been upset about for a long time and resolve those as well.

How can anyone possibly disagree with that? Of course the goal is a balanced relationship where we are both happy.

But in reality the way it's been used has been as a defense against my justified criticism, and anger resulting from her betrayal. She is extremely sensitive to any criticism or blame from me. When she feels that, her defenses kick in and she goes into attack mode lashing out with criticism and blame of her own. Ostensibly to balance the scales so she doesn't feel so bad, and so that our relationship is not unequal.

It's almost like she is saying "I was unhappy. How I handled my unhappiness was wrong, and I take responsibility for that part, but you need to take responsibility for your part in my unhappiness". See so they aren't connected, and yet they are. So every time I bring up anything about the affair, she feels the need to bring up her stuff so that she gets resolution as well.

This complicated attitude is really retarding the progress of our reconciliation in my opinion and even two years later I'm on this forum complaining about it.

Your wife seems to be stuck in her own shame. She's either unwilling or unable to focus on her own issues and do her best to unravel whatever issues she has - issues that have been tripping her up for most of her life, issues she had long before you ever met her.

I agree with this statement but unfortunately she doesn't seem to. This is part of why she absolutely hates this forum and thinks me coming here is hurting our relationship. She believes what many therapists believe, that the relationship led to the affair and since that is one of the causes it needs to be addressed.

You cannot, however, force her into doing the work that reconciliation requires.

Agreed, and if I somehow forced her to come here, or to read the books I want or whatever, it would be like it was with how to help your spouse heal from your affair. She would perform the action (read the book in this case), without really internalizing anything, and without it resulting in positive changes. It would be performative only.

So what does that leave me with?

This is why I'm considering just taking a break for a bit. This is causing both of us stress, and I cannot and shouldn't try to force her to do this, so maybe the solution is to wait and address it again some time down the road. I don't know.

LonelyGuilty
Thanks for commenting on my thread.

I am a WW and I was reacting very much like your wife at first. This was mainly because that was all I knew about "cheating" from TV, the environment I grew up in etc.. I genuinely had no clue of the real "anatomy" of an A and how to start working towards reconciliation.

The thing is, she seems to be really genuinely trying. She wants to reconcile. This is why I'm so confused by her actions. She wants to reconcile, but nearly every discussion we have about it ends in us fighting and bickering, and a fair amount of that because of this knee jerk reactiveness she is exhibiting.

Unfortunately, many therapists don’t know either. My own therapist is great when we work through my stuff and roots of things, but I don’t see her particularly helpful when we discuss how to move forward from infidelity.

Wow do I understand this. The therapist we are seeing now was my individual therapist, and it's clear to me that he understands how infidelity feels, having gone through it himself, but he seems clueless when it comes to what we need to reconcile. He represents the 3rd couples therapist we have seen and most of them didn't seem to get it. The first one seemed to get it a bit, but my wife ended that relationship real quick. She says it was because she was not qualified, but I believe it's because that therapist was not as safe of a space as my wife wanted. That therapist would actually ask the difficult questions of my wife such as "do you want to be in this relationship?".

What changed my perspective was this forum. It was incredibly painful at first to realise what I had actually done, but I am glad I kept reading because I finally started getting many things (still getting them).

Are there any similar forum where she could find a similar community? Maybe just reading and absorbing what she reads could help her move forward.

I have actually asked her to come here and read. She did. She spent like four hours reading a bunch of stuff, including my posts which I explicitly asked her to not read, and at the end of it she said that this forum is too negative and it's unhelpful for our reconciliation. She thinks people are saying that she needs to grovel at my feet, and be subservient, and she doesn't consider the people here to be "experts".

I very much disagree with that idea. I think the people here are more expert on infidelity than most therapists. I mean if you wanted to climb Mt Everest, would you want to get guidance from someone who studied mountain climbing in school but has actually never done it? Or get help from the person who has actually climbed it many times, but doesn't have a degree?

The people here have actually climbed the mountain. But she doesn't agree. All she saw was an unsafe negative space that she doesn't want to participate in. She has asked me to stay away from all internet forums, and thinks they are full of people who don't know what they are talking about and their advice is unhelpful. She actually said "I am never going to that site again" referring to this site .

Lastly, what also helped me get less difensive was this book "Rising Strong" by Rene Brown (hikingout recommended it to me).

Hiking out always has such good advice. I actually bought this book on Audible, but honestly I am hesitant to suggest it to her. She is very reluctant to accept any advice from me at all. I asked her to read a couple of books, which she eventually did, but didn't agree with. I sent her articles, and videos from you tube, and again she didn't "agree" with most of those. She actually said to me "I don't have to do it your way" referring to reconciliation.

I believe her reactions are self defensive. Because I'm the person she betrayed she doesn't put a lot of stock in my opinion because "obviously" I'm just angry and want to punish her. Or something. So any sources I bring to her are discounted for those reasons. Then add onto that the whole they aren't an expert unless they have had mainstream training or a degree or something, that basically rules out most of the things I have sent her. She seems to buy into the affairs are caused by unhappy marriages idea, and anything that doesn't' support that idea is also discounted. So that removes the few remaining items. Then if any are left at all, if she doesn't feel like they are taking a "balanced" view on the situation, and considering her feelings and the things that led her to make that choice, then they are out as well. So really only mainstream couples counselors who will remain completely neutral are valid in her eyes.

I'm honestly at a loss as to what to do here, and at this point quite frustrated.

Most of the time my wife keeps herself extremely busy with things not reconciliation related. From what I see she does individual therapy once every three weeks. Then couples therapy once every three weeks. And then she does things on a continuous basis to help me such as calling to talk to me when in the past she would have called her AP. Saying thank you and that she loves me often. Making time for me. She often listen's if I want to communicate how I'm feeling about something - as long as she doesn't get defensive or feel that I'm trying to make things "unequal".

If I bring something up that I want changed or added it often results in us fighting as I have been describing here. She spends a lot of energy in our fights making sure I hear and understand her side of things, and in defending herself, and in pushing her narrative that everything needs to be equal and balanced in our relationship. Usually at the end of the fight she complains how she has been doing a LOT to help me and has been putting her needs aside to help me with what I need. She complains that she can't do this forever, and that she is exhausted, and feels overwhelmed.

I believe that she feels overwhelmed because she keeps herself so busy (distracted) all the time she doesn't have time to do much else. So me asking for anything extra feels like a huge burden to her.

So she discounts my sources to the point where I feel that they really don't have much of an affect. And she feels overwhelmed all of the time by what she is currently doing, and we disagree in the approach to reconciliation, so me asking her to change things or asking for more seems really daunting for her.

I doubt any forum I suggest she will accept. Any book I suggest she won't have time to read, and if she does will probably view it with suspicion from the start and only be doing it because I asked not because she really wants to.

She is not in the "lets figure out what happened with me" mode from what I can tell. Maybe she is in therapy, but not when she is around me. I see her as exhausted, and frustrated, and wanting things to go back to normal.

What would you suggest I do?

I want to be clear here that even though I am exhibiting a lot of frustration and anger, it's not because I'm falling out of love for her or that I'm looking for a way to exit the relationship. I really do love her and want to be one of the examples of couples that successfully reconciled. In reality 80%-90% of our interactions are good. We are happy and get a long well most of the time. We love each other.

The last two years have sucked though, and I have a lot of hurt and resentment that's built up over that time. Sometimes it's difficult maintaining a positive attitude. Theres the "is she going to really change" issue, and the "am I doing this right" issue, and the "I don't want to betray myself or let this be swept under the rug" issue. Thats a lot of stuff, and I feel frustrated that the progress I thought we had was just her stuffing her feelings down instead of really dealing with things.

Theevent —

Theres the "is she going to really change" issue, and the "am I doing this right" issue, and the "I don't want to betray myself or let this be swept under the rug" issue.

She really does need to show change, and there may yet be a path for you for her to show you.

As for the are you doing it right —- well, the good thing is you keep asking questions, of your wife, the therapist and us — you will find your way forward.

Betraying yourself? I don’t see it so far. To me, we only betray ourselves if we ALLOW or ENABLE more harm to continue to be inflicted on us. You are figuring out whether or not your M can be what you need it to be. Ultimately, if it can’t be a safe relationship for you, I think you will do what you need and leave.

Rugsweeping is pretending bad things didn’t happen and wanting things to be ‘normal’.

That’s what your WS is doing now.

However, I can relate to simply being worn out talking about it all.

Set up a time, once a week, once a month — outline an hour or so to talk about what you need to talk about. I wouldn’t put it off too long, because your wife really, really needs to own your CURRENT PAIN. And by the way, sharing your concerns is NOT a punishment, no matter how she tries to frame it that way.

Last thought, I did see that your wife is sweating an imbalance in the M moving forward. Which is always possible since cheating is far worse than whatever you did to MAKE her unhappy. For what it is worth, maybe her first step is understanding the only person who can make her happy, is her.

All M have problems.

Not all people choose to cheat.

I think a fair question is still one I mentioned before.

So the next time either one of you feels bad about the M, the answer is to have sex with someone outside the M?

It is a question you HAVE to know the answer to, just to feel like R is possible.

Or, if she doesn’t really want to hurt you again, what are the ways she is willing to show you she is becoming a stronger, safer partner?

Has she read "Not Just Friends" by Shirley Glass? I read that one fairly early on after DDay and I thought it was VERY fair and understanding of WS, while also acknowledging the devastating effects of infidelity on the BS. I tend to get a lot of "reading" done through listening to audiobooks in the car, during exercise, or whilst doing chores.

Personally, I think you need to write her up a list of conditions (therapy, further reading, sticking with a infidelity specialized MC that might make her a bit uncomfortable at times, etc.) that she has to meet if she wants to reconcile, and grey rock her if she tries to blame shift anymore. (Note the difference between "grey rocking" and "cold shouldering--" one is self-protective and has the intention of resuming communication when it's safe to do so; the other is weaponized silence/refusal of communication to get your SO to do what you want, respectively)

You can express your love for her, how badly you want this to work out, that you are angry but don't want to "punish her," that you need safety and reassurance to begin rebuilding the relationship, and that you believe she can change... without "threatening" divorce and while still insisting on the necessary conditions for your reconciliation.

She actually said to me "I don't have to do it your way" referring to reconciliation.

Yes, she does, lol. It's gonna be a challenge getting her to see that, but I think if you just detach a little more every time she starts getting defensive, and simply refuse to accept blame or argue about it, it might get her to change her approach to this.

She spends a lot of energy in our fights making sure I hear and understand her side of things, and in defending herself, and in pushing her narrative that everything needs to be equal and balanced in our relationship. Usually at the end of the fight she complains how she has been doing a LOT to help me and has been putting her needs aside to help me with what I need. She complains that she can't do this forever, and that she is exhausted, and feels overwhelmed.

What do you think would happen if you listened well enough to summarize everything she's saying back to her, and you verify with her that you heard and understand her correctly... And then you told her, very calmly and matter-of-factly, "I understand that's important to you. I promise we can work on those things after we recover from your infidelity. It may take several years, but I need you to be patient enough for me to heal from this. [insert explanation of how this has affected you]... I will work on healing myself, but I need you to work on healing yourself as well, and really dig into the deep reasons why you were unfaithful. I know it's hard and profoundly uncomfortable, but I love you and I believe you can do it." ?

That way she can't reasonably claim you aren't listening to her or that you don't understand, and it becomes more clear that things are most definitely not equal or balanced in your relationship at the moment, and they probably won't be for a long time. Again, gently exit the conversation if she gets defensive or starts trying to argue. I think she'll eventually get it. Once she does, she'll be more open to your reading recommendations and list of conditions. Maybe you can work with her to clear up her schedule for regular periods of reflection, reading, IC, and productive conversations with you.

Or, she'll double down on the defensiveness and you'll still get no where. But that's a sign that she may not be a good candidate for reconciliation.

You have been very patient with her, and that's something to be proud of. Best of luck!

[This message edited by GotTheMorbs at 1:49 AM, Monday, June 1st]

I really do love her and want to be one of the examples of couples that successfully reconciled.

I am of the happily reconciled crowd.

And I know some WS hate the SI path of responsibility.

I can also add, my wife is the most defensive human being ever born — and we made it through R anyway!

Her A was four years, and she kept a secret for 18-years.

No one wants to be the villain in their life story.

Not your wife, not mine.

My wife feared she would never be able to do enough to make up for the LTA, and she was right. But, she tries to make up for it anyway (and I try to make up for the days I wasn’t a great partner either).

Ten years into R, I sleep great, my M is awesome, better than ever.

It is because after blaming me, blaming the M, blaming the AP, blaming the Universe at times, my wife changed course and owned her choices.

Many WS have to change the narrative of their choices so they can sleep at night.

They can change it back, and offer some empathy, if they want as well.

All that, and my wife can still be defensive about stuff, but that’s a family of origin issue that may take until the end of time to solve. The key is, she recognizes those defensive moments and…changes course, and at least listens to me when I just need to vent some OLD pain.

Your wife shouldn’t hate SI — this is the place that introduced me to R.

I previously always thought if someone cheats, the other leaves, end of story.

SI is founded by a couple who R’d.

R can absolutely work when a WS tries to understand the very unique TRAUMA caused by infidelity.

Oldwounds
I appreciate you responding to my thread.

She really does need to show change, and there may yet be a path for you for her to show you.

In the last year she really has changed a lot. But it's been agonizingly slow. So slow in fact that some times I wonder if it's really happening or if we are just progressing along the natural healing path everyone goes down.

Betraying yourself? I don’t see it so far. To me, we only betray ourselves if we ALLOW or ENABLE more harm to continue to be inflicted on us.

I really like this definition.

Set up a time, once a week, once a month — outline an hour or so to talk about what you need to talk about. I wouldn’t put it off too long, because your wife really, really needs to own your CURRENT PAIN. And by the way, sharing your concerns is NOT a punishment, no matter how she tries to frame it that way.

I suggested this the other day in therapy. She wasn't interested because whenever we "talk" it ends up in us fighting. We even fight in therapy but at least there is a mediator there. Sometimes the fighting happens because I'm triggered or having a difficult time, but often it's because she gets triggered by shame and guilt and defends herself. Maybe GotTheMorbs is onto something with this grey rock thing in response to defensiveness. I don't know.

I think a fair question is still one I mentioned before.

So the next time either one of you feels bad about the M, the answer is to have sex with someone outside the M?

It is a question you HAVE to know the answer to, just to feel like R is possible.

Or, if she doesn’t really want to hurt you again, what are the ways she is willing to show you she is becoming a stronger, safer partner?

I asked her a very similar question a month or so ago in therapy. The things she complains about she does not connect with the affair. She takes "full responsibility" for her choice to betray, and seems to want me to do the same for things we fundamentally disagree on. We have gone round and round and are getting nowhere with conversations about this stuff. She said as far as protecting our relationship she is being open and honest, and stays away from anyone who she starts to feel anything for.

Those are very good things, but don't seem to have much relevance to this extreme defensiveness and fairness attitude she has had from the start.

In how to help your spouse heal from your affair the parting thought she leaves the reader with is that there is one attitude that must be present for a successful reconciliation, and thats humility. In the last two years I don't see a lot of humility from her, and that scares me. I'm also very tired of dealing with regular fights and her continuing to be resentful of me.

Hello Friend,

So very sorry you are going through this.
From what I gather, your wife has simply not truly taken accountability for what she has done. She might admit on surface level it was wrong ..."but"...with the next breath....this and that is why she did it...
Aka.....not really accountable.

As much as you love her, and are rather accommodating towards her....your body feels it. Your body feels the injustice....and you cannot even really begin to forgive because she has not taken accountability. Essentially she is standing her ground. She is not broken, she is not repentant.

I pray she begins to see the deciet in her heart and truly turns. .

She cannot show empathy towards you while blaming you. And empathy is crucial for healing.🙏

One mantra for you, which you can say to yourself and/or to your W:

"I reject any blame for the infidelity." Simple, matter of fact, can't be argued with. Doesn't say anything about her-- it's a lovely, pure "I" statement. She can't make you accept the blame, even if she tries to put it on you. You calmly, simply, and openly reject it.

The ball's in her court with regards what to do with the blame after that. There's relatively few options for where it can go then: maybe the AP, maybe FOO, maybe life stressors... and herself. And one can say to the first three, "Well, what are YOU doing in response to those things, to keep our marriage safe? How are YOU ensuring you reject other men's advances? What are YOU doing to resolve your FOO issues? What are YOU doing to change your unhealthy coping mechanisms to stress?" Like, there can be sympathy for life's hardships, but ultimately we only control ourselves and how we respond to them. That's one of the most important things I've learned through conversations here and during my own IC. If fidelity, the marriage, and your spouse are the highest priorities, you[general, second person POV 'you,' not you specifically, Theevent] gotta figure that shit out, you know? And doing that internal work is how you armor up against that which stands to destroy your marriage.

But stopping the blame shifting is the first step.

I've read your last few posts a few times and here's what I see.

Your wife is determined to reconcile on her terms. Anyone and anything that challenges her preconceived ideas gets shot down.

This is her ego protecting itself and it's wayward thinking from start to finish.

People who tend to avoid conflict first and foremost avoid the conflicts within themselves. It seems to me that she is avoiding the conflict between her ego protecting itself and the fact that she betrayed herself. It terrifies her to accept she might break while avoiding the fact that she has already broken.

So, she avoids. She keeps herself busy, rejecting everything and everyone who challenges her desperate need for self-preservation.

I don't know if there's anything you can do to change this. I don't think there's any way to accept this, either, which might be the source of your frustration.

This is why I'm considering just taking a break for a bit.

I think this is a great idea. Step-back and detach from your WW. Forget about your marriage and reconciliation for a while. Practice a soft 180 by focusing on you and your healing. Find your own happiness and peace of mind, body and spirit.

Once upon a time, I had a revenge affair. I wrote all about it on SI. I didn't feel any guilt or shame or remorse about it in the least! I had a revenge affair with myself and it was everything I hoped it could have been.

[This message edited by Unhinged at 3:21 AM, Monday, June 1st]

I am still deep in the mud, so please don't take my post as advice, but simply as me sharing my perspective (no advice!)

I read a few things in this thread about your wife that resonated with me.

"She keeps herself busy" I do this. Not busy with things for myself, but with things for the family. This was the only way I knew to show love, affection, etc. So while I understand this does not help with the infidelity itself, it was the only way I knew to show I am committed. There are deeper reasons for this need to keep busy obviously, and we (waywards, but probably everyone) should get to the bottom of that. But it can feel "triggering" hearing "you aren't doing anything" when in your mind you are using all of your time for the family.

It took me time to see this, and even if I see it now, I am not always successful in directing my energy on the right things.

As everybody said, nothing, NOTHING, justifies an A. The M is never to blame.

There can be wounds pre-A that are deep though. And yes, they need to take the back-seat while the BS recover from the A. Mostly, they need to be "separated" from reasons for the A. It's a fine line for both BS and WS I think.

As you said, it seems that your wife is really trying but defensiveness is the weakness and blocker now.

One thing I will say, that there is no "ready-made" recipes for moving from that. You know your wife and what could hopefully lead her out of her defensive mode.

And yes, healing and reconciliation should go your way!

[This message edited by LonelyGuilty at 1:12 PM, Monday, June 1st]

The wound you received from her affair is like a catastrophic head injury from a car accident where she was the driver. When you're both in triage you deal with the worst of the worst injuries first. If you have a gaping head wound from the accident, you don't insist the paramedics deal with the driver's scraped knee from last week first. It'll eventually need dealt with, sure, but you get the head trauma stabilized first.

Your pre-affair injuries might be real and need to be dealt with, but right now the affair is the catastrophic head injury that needs stabilized first.

I suspect your wife doesn't like "How To Help Your Spouse From Your Affair" because it would make her face what she did and acknowledge that your head wound is far more serious than her scraped knee.

I don't blame you for struggling man. I would be too.

Pogre, to me it’s like your metaphor but make it a road-rage incident. She shot his car up with bullets, and now she’s saying "yes I did that - my bad - but we can’t fix your car and deal with your bullet wounds unless we also talk about the fact that you totally cut me off in the first place. You’re a terrible driver, and that’s a big problem too."

Theevent, you said:

It's almost like she is saying "I was unhappy. How I handled my unhappiness was wrong, and I take responsibility for that part, but you need to take responsibility for your part in my unhappiness". See so they aren't connected, and yet they are. So every time I bring up anything about the affair, she feels the need to bring up her stuff so that she gets resolution as well

"Yet they are" is right - it’s a causal relationship. If she cheated because she was unhappy and you were, in whole or in part, causing that unhappiness, then you (in that telling) are part of the cause. Asserting they’re not connected does not make it so.

Theevent, when I read your description of some of her behavior, I wonder if she’s, on some level trying to avoid responsibility for a failed R? Like, she’s worried it’s going to end in D, and she’s setting herself up to be able to say "well, TE wouldn’t talk about his contributions to my unhappiness, and he was taking advice from yahoos on the internet, etc etc., so that’s why it didn’t work in the end." Not that she doesn’t want to R, but that she’s concerned it won’t work and she doesn’t want to be at fault for that as well, if that makes sense.

WoodThrush2, GotTheMorbs, Unhinged

From what I gather, your wife has simply not truly taken accountability for what she has done.

So, she avoids. She keeps herself busy, rejecting everything and everyone who challenges her desperate need for self-preservation.

Essentially she is standing her ground. She is not broken, she is not repentant.

This is her ego protecting itself and it's wayward thinking from start to finish.

I don't believe she is taking true accountability, but she does believe she is.

In our fight the other day, one of her lash-out-to-defend herself things she did was to repeat a criticism thats been around for like 18 months. "You don't communicate what you need from me, and so I'm left grasping for what to do", "she also said I'm always changing the goal posts". Neither thing is true. I have shared books, videos, articles, told her directly what I need in different ways several times. She rejects the vast majority of the things I suggest, so yeah post mass rejection there isn't much left.

This is her standing her ground. This is her rejection of everything that doesn't fit in her narrative.

What are YOU doing to change your unhealthy coping mechanisms to stress?

She would agree that it's on her. And she would say she is doing this. Then she would follow it up with something like "but I need to feel like these other things are being addressed". Almost like because she is willing to address the affair, I should be willing to address all these other issues. But again we don't see eye to eye on them, and I believe this is all a self defense mechanism.

I reject any blame for the infidelity.

The ball's in her court with regards what to do with the blame after that.

But stopping the blame shifting is the first step.

So, she avoids. She keeps herself busy, rejecting everything and everyone who challenges her desperate need for self-preservation.

She doesn't believe the things she has been bringing up for the past two years are her blaming me for the infidelity, or that she is avoiding. She says things like "I take full responsibility for the affair. And there were problems in our marriage that need to be addressed", or "you didn't cause my affair, but things you did caused me to be unhappy, and that triggered my pre-existing unhealthy coping mechanisms. It could have been alcohol, or drugs, in my case it was infidelity.". All statements that are difficult to argue with, but are masking the real reason she has been bringing this stuff up from the start. It's not like we had two years of reconciliation and then she decided we needed to work on these issues. This has been happening essentially from day 1 after D-day.

Step-back and detach from your WW. Forget about your marriage and reconciliation for a while. Practice a soft 180 by focusing on you and your healing.

I get why you are suggesting the 180. It's a way to protect myself from this situation. And that would make total sense to me if she were not trying. If she were treating me badly, or continuing an affair, or absolutely refusing to do any work. But in our case she is doing plenty of things. I have seen no evidence of further deception, or that she is having another affair. I believe she is sincere. Messed up, but sincere.

I love her and doing a 180 would hurt her a lot, especially when she feels like she is trying so hard. I can't do a 180 and also claim I'm trying to reconcile. If I were out of fuel so to speak then the 180 would make sense. But I'm not there and while she's putting in positive effort, and I still have patience to continue, then I need to do what I can to help the situation.

One of the more annoying aspects of this situation is that she is doing just enough for me to want to stay, but not enough for me to feel like we are out of the woods yet. So I see her effort, and I see positive changes, but not enough for me to feel safe. I keep pushing to feel safe, and she keeps pushing back, and complaining that I can never be satisfied.

Now after typing all that out, it's starting to dawn on me that her trauma is kicking in, and her brain is switching into defense mode. In that mode she is not thinking rationally, and none of the things I say are going to have an affect on her except to pour gasoline on the fire so to speak.