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I also know that closure isn't a real thing in these situations, at least not the type of closure you get from anyone else. But man, I'd really like to know that all these years and all my work and struggles weren't in vain, that I didn't waste them on somebody who never deserved me. Unfortunately, I don't think that's coming. Is it really enough for you guys to know that you did your best to live up to your vows and act with integrity

It has to be. Because with people like your WH, there’s no conversation that could ever suffice. There’s nothing that undermines ‘closure’ more than trying to talk with people who re-write history. You end up more wound up and in the end you remind yourself why you had to turn your back to them in the first place.

Oldwounds says something that I think of as an essential part of healing. He says "I trust myself." There’s so much in that simple statement, but that is what you need to do. It means so many things, but in this case I think you need to trust yourself that your work and struggles were not wasted. You did your very best, and no body, no single one of us, can do more than that. Doing your best is its own reward, and it’s a demonstration of your quality. It may be cold comfort, but there is real comfort in the pride and dignity you can rightly claim.

It has to be. Because with people like your WH, there’s no conversation that could ever suffice. There’s nothing that undermines ‘closure’ more than trying to talk with people who re-write history. You end up more wound up and in the end you remind yourself why you had to turn your back to them in the first place.

You're right. And to be clear, when I said "I don't think that's coming," I didn't mean that I need or want a closure conversation with WH2. I'd like to not see or speak to him again. He has no remorse about the way he treated me - as you suggest, he's rewritten history to where I'm a villain and he a victim, so all of this was deserved - and subjecting myself to that would only hurt me.

But I would like to, I don't know, have a sign from the universe that he was a decent person and a good husband who lost his way. I don't believe that anyone in a marriage is blameless or happy 100% of the time, but I thought I was a good wife and that I made him happy for a lot of years. I know his actions and unhappiness over the last 18 months of cheating and whatever mental gymnastics led him there have everything to do with him, his character, his choices and his refusal to communicate, but it's a real killer to the psyche to think that the resentments and bad behavior could have gone much further back. Or that he's convinced himself (as I think he has) that I was emotionally abusive to him for our entire marriage.

I guess that's silly. It's not really going to make me feel better. I'll still feel discarded and used by a pathological liar and emotionally stunted fetish-chaser. Maybe that's the problem? That I feel incredibly stupid for thinking I had a happy marriage with a good and decent man and it turns out I was very, very wrong. Or, to your second point, that I *don't* trust myself anymore.

[This message edited by purplecheetah at 2:41 PM, Thursday, September 17th]

I definitely relate when you said it’s hard to trust yourself anymore. I think it will take time for your mind to adjust to the reality, and that’s normal. You’re not stupid for believing in him. That’s what you were supposed to do.
I also just wanted to comment on something you said earlier. The pressuring you for sex / making you feel guilty that you’re not doing it enough / laughing at you for being too loud / refusing to remove the jewelry that makes you uncomfortable during sex … all of those things constitute as sexual abuse. He was not respecting your body or your consent and comfort. I would explore that aspect with a therapist as well because that’s not an easy thing to deal with. you are worthy of being respected- you are not just a machine for men’s pleasure .

The benefit of him being goth subculture is that it’s a smaller community so you should oust what kind of person he is and hopefully they will shun him from their community too

Maybe you have to separate the two people - person he was during your marriage IS NOT the person he is now.

People change. Not always in a positive way.

Yes my H made me the "bad guy" during his last affair. I was to blame for his unhappiness. My H had the audacity to tell me I never loved him and married him for other reasons. Well it certainly wasn’t $ because he didn’t have any

That statement was so ludicrous I literally laughed in his face. Of course that made HIM angry

Of course it hit me like a ton of bricks. I really took it to heart. Until one day I realized I’m not responsible for his happiness — that’s on him.

So please don’t allow your CH to negatively impact your whole history as a married couple by making it out to be "he was unhappy all the time" and it’s your fault.

That is his justification for cheating - you drove him to it Honestly it’s best not to engage with a person who rewrites the entire story to their benefit. He’s not dealing in reality and never will (at least to you).

The pressuring you for sex / making you feel guilty that you’re not doing it enough / laughing at you for being too loud / refusing to remove the jewelry that makes you uncomfortable during sex … all of those things constitute as sexual abuse. He was not respecting your body or your consent and comfort. I would explore that aspect with a therapist as well because that’s not an easy thing to deal with.

I have to be honest, this comment has been following me all weekend. I read a lot and started writing a response twice. I'm still not sure how I feel about this.

I absolutely agree that the piercing stuff was abusive. Violating my trust by getting them without talking to me, then refusing to take them out for sex despite my discomfort was equivalent to forcing me to use painful sex toys. (And it recently occurred to me that him getting them just as I was making a job change in part to help our marriage was sabotage.) As I was already prone to chronic UTIs, I couldn't believe he was being so bullheaded about the irritation and damage the piercings were causing, but he actually kept getting larger and heavier jewelry. From an emotional standpoint, it felt like his choices came down to having sex with me or keeping the jewelry in, and he chose the jewelry. That was all abuse.

The rest...I'm not sure I'm comfortable calling it that. Partly because, while I felt pressured for sex and guilty if we weren't doing it, his conduct was mostly just passive-aggressive - sighing, frustrated roll-overs in bed, or going up to bed without saying good night. Is that frustration or abuse? I kind of thought the line was sexual coercion. (Maybe that's residual guilt talking?) As for the laughing, I read online a bit and saw a lot of comments that sex noises are Funny! and women who get upset with their partner laughing at them are over-reacting and wound too tight. I don't necessarily agree, given how shitty I felt when he did it, but I can see the POV.

Sex was a charged issue in our marriage so I'm being careful about labeling things abuse. Now, the way he treated me with contempt and used me and lied to me and snuck behind my back and spent our money to conduct his EA, as well as his post D-Day admission that he knew how badly I would be hurt by an affair but he wanted out so he did it anyway because he knew I'd be done with the marriage - that's all emotional and psychological abuse of the highest order. When I started thinking about it in those terms right after D-Day, it caused me to break NC so I could text WH2 to say "You must really hate me." (I came to my senses and re-blocked him right away so I didn't see his response.) But he must have convinced himself that I'm a terrible person/wife to be able to act that way. That, or he's a sociopath.

you are worthy of being respected- you are not just a machine for men’s pleasure .

Once he was gone, I realized that he never expressed desire for me, just for sex. I could have been anyone. That was incredibly painful to think about - and it's another piece of the puzzle re: my lack of desire for him.

The benefit of him being goth subculture is that it’s a smaller community so you should oust what kind of person he is and hopefully they will shun him from their community too

Of course it hit me like a ton of bricks. I really took it to heart. Until one day I realized I’m not responsible for his happiness — that’s on him.

So please don’t allow your CH to negatively impact your whole history as a married couple by making it out to be "he was unhappy all the time" and it’s your fault.

WH2 has always been a sucker for recency bias. Looking back at his demeanor and conduct, I believe he was struggling for much of this year. I was doing some accounting and I think I even know the exact day in April he decided he was done because on D-Day, he mentioned a conversation that annoyed him and his spending habits took a dramatic turn the same weekend we had it. But he changed a lot in the year before that, and into an unhappy, miserable guy I don't recognize. I think you're right that I'm going to have to keep thinking of them as two people so I don't break my brain.

I'll try not to keeping taking his words to heart. It's hard. I was reading that the person who carries a marriage usually takes on the guilt for its demise in a way the other never does. So unfair!

[This message edited by purplecheetah at 2:12 AM, Monday, September 21st]